Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility

[Manuster]

Not every jutsu is the same.

However, in game, every time a jutsu is cast, you end up with the same result.

Currently, the more a jutsu is used, the better a user gets at it. However this only means that every person with a maxed out fireball will have the exact same fireball. A huge fireball the size of a house that obliterates everyone in its way. This may be useful in war, but what if you want to be discreet? Or hide how powerful you are in order to not become a target? Or you know someone is following you but you don't want them to know exactly how powerful you are? Or what if you only need a modest sized fireball but you don't want to sacrifice damage?

My suggestion is that as a user increases their skill at a single jutsu, their control over every aspect of the jutsu increases. You will be able to use a house sized fireball and obliterate a dozen noobs but also use a concentrated beam of fire at a single target. But if you use a concentrated beam of fire, shouldn't it be more powerful?

Well lets take the fireball for example. A weak, narrow, short flame is released when a noob uses it, but a wide, far reaching, powerful flame is released when a master uses it.

My suggestion is that when you cast a fireball, you have a choice to change;

• the intensity of the flame
• the width of the flame
• the length flame
• the height of the flame
• chakra efficiency

However, increasing one of these values will come at the cost of another. For example, if one were to use a wide, tall, far reaching flame, there would be almost no damage caused. But if one were to make a flame that were several pixels wide and high, it would be alot more powerful. You could make the jutsu more chakra efficient (use less chakra) but you would be left with a pretty weak and tiny flame.

You basically have the option to 'toggle' between these values. However, as you get BETTER at the jutsu (by using it more), you can get more 'points' to toggle with. Meaning that at a master level, you can choose a wide, high flame but also a narrow, far reaching one with maximum intensity and maximum chakra effeciency. (You do not have to use all the 'points' available so you can reduce the height of the jutsu if you want and keep everything else maxed out.)

I've made a little table to illustrate the idea better - all the values are random and off the top of my head.

Both Noobs have 222 "points"

Fireball Jutsu at NoobLevel Option A

• the intensity of the flame     50             50 hp damage per second
• the width of the flame         100            10m wide
• the length flame                 50              5m long
• the height of the flame       17              1.7m high
• chakra efficiency                 5               450chakra per second

Fireball Jutsu at Noob Level Option B

• the intensity of the flame     30             30 hp damage per second
• the width of the flame         10             1m wide
• the length flame                 150            150m long
• the height of the flame        10              1m wide
• chakra efficiency                 22              280chakra per second

The same jutsu has been cast with 2 different results.

Maybe at a master level, there could be 10000 'points' to play around with. And maybe, just maybe, no cap to each individual attribute. An illustration of what a master at fireball jutsu could do with 10000 points;

Fireball Jutsu at Master Level

• the intensity of the flame   5000         5000 hp damage per second
• the width of the flame       2500          250m wide
• the length flame               1250          125m long
• the height of the flame      1250         125m
• chakra efficiency               0              1000 chakra per second

A fireball like Madara's

Fireball Jutsu at Master Level

• the intensity of the flame   2500         2500 hp damage per second
• the width of the flame        250           25m wide
• the length flame                250           25m long
• the height of the flame      250           25m
• chakra efficiency               2500         10 chakra per second

This time, you haven't used all 10000 points. This may be intentional. You have the option to hold back your strength, which is a layer of the game that is not otherwise present. Every fireball is max strength when you use it, even if you're only training with someone far weaker than you.

At the end, every single fireball jutsu will be different, because they are used by different people with people prioritising different attributes to the jutsu. By extension, every single jutsu will be different. The system is very very similar to jutsu creation in that sense, but there is no room for abuse, and it doesnt even need to be monitored.

A point system also allows for a measurable way to calculate how much better someone gets at a jutsu.  We know that every time a jutsu is used in combat you get better at it. Spamming fireballs into a wall won't improve it but using it against someone else will. With this system, every time a jutsu makes contact/affects an opponent, you could gain one 'point' to distribute amongst its attributes. So a master who has used the jutsu 10000 times will have 10000 points and a soft cap could be introduced at this point so instead of every successful use adding one point, every 10 successful uses add a point to be distributed.

Jutsu will be assigned 'points' out of battle. In your menu, you will have the option to save 3 presets for each jutsu and name them as you like. Once you cast the jutsu normally, you will be able to press any of 3 keys to select which preset you use. (This shouldn't affect the pace of battle, these keys will be chosen by the user and will not be keys that are assigned to anything else and they just have to be tapped once, after the normal handsigns)

Fireball Jutsu:
1. Wide and long [H]
2. Narrow and effecient [G]
3. Holding back [F]


Assuming the keys F, G and H are unused, to cast a fireball you have saved into slot 1, you would type in the normal fireball jutsu and then H immediatly. If you don't press H, your character will simply hold the last sign, ready to cast it.

[NinjaMirage]

So you want to give every jutsu in the game stats/ I'm not aposed to the idea but it seams like a lot of work and as far as chakra efficiency go's I think that's should happen on the character stats side instead of the jutsu.

This is a good system for the change in form skill of jutsu!! It dose leave out the effects of jutsu clash and  collaboration. And that is a stat the jutsu will need to have!!

[Manuster]

So you want to give every jutsu in the game stats/ I'm not aposed to the idea but it seams like a lot of work and as far as chakra efficiency go's I think that's should happen on the character stats side instead of the jutsu.

This is a good system for the change in form skill of jutsu!! It dose leave out the effects of jutsu clash and  collaboration. And that is a stat the jutsu will need to have!!

Every game in the jutsu already has stats.

Your wind bullet travels at a certain speed and is of certain size. Your earth dome is of a certain size, thickness and lasts a fixed amount of time. These stats already exist. I'm just suggesting we can alter them.

A faster wind bullet but the same size. A thicker, smaller earth dome that lasts twice as long...

[NinjaMirage]

Like I said it's a good Idea but it would likely not be as dynamic as you are suggesting. Also what skill should allow you to alter the jutsu this way? How much training should be required to tweak these values? It open up a large can of worms when you get in to altering jutsu stats. What your suggesting is several different stat values you can chose from if every jutsu planed had 3 different variations on stats that's 375 stat values that need to be programmed!! Then the clash and collaboration system is 3 times as complicated as well!! As an expansion in the future I would be extremely excited to see this kind of detail!! But let's get a playable game first!! Then tweek what we have!!

[Manuster]

Like I said it's a good Idea but it would likely not be as dynamic as you are suggesting. Also what skill should allow you to alter the jutsu this way? How much training should be required to tweak these values? It open up a large can of worms when you get in to altering jutsu stats. What your suggesting is several different stat values you can chose from if every jutsu planed had 3 different variations on stats that's 375 stat values that need to be programmed!! Then the clash and collaboration system is 3 times as complicated as well!! As an expansion in the future I would be extremely excited to see this kind of detail!! But let's get a playable game first!! Then tweek what we have!!

when you learn a jutsu you start with some random value, 1 or 5 or 10, idk its not up to me to decide

who mentioned any training? every time you use the jutsu successfully, you gain a point.

USING THE JUTSU IS TRAINING IT - which perfectly explains why you have more control over the jutsu's attributes.

"A point system also allows for a measurable way to calculate how much better someone gets at a jutsu.  We know that every time a jutsu is used in combat you get better at it. Spamming fireballs into a wall won't improve it but using it against someone else will. With this system, every time a jutsu makes contact/affects an opponent, you could gain one 'point' to distribute amongst its attributes."


And I beg to differ. It will be very dynamic. Take a single fireball jutsu, you can turn it into a laser like beam of concentrated power or a wide, high wall that sweeps out several opponents or a medium size ball that uses all of your chakra but at the benefit of very high damage.
.
If you're fighting an opponent who keeps dodging to the left, use a fireball jutsu with high width. If you're fighting an opponent who keeps jumping, use a fireball jutsu with high height. If you're much better at aiming at everyone else, you could use the laser.

Honestly, the only limit to the jutsu is the user, I've named 5 completely different applications of one, very basic jutsu.


How do you think the jutsu are coded? The fireball jutsu has a damage component. Obviously. The game is 3D, it obviously has a width, height and length. The jutsu consumes chakra, what's new about that? Chakra efficeincy.

And there you get the 5 'attributes' for fireball.

Width, height, length, damage per second, chakra per second

What's new or complicated about any of those? They already exist in the code for fireball.

And you can easily deduce what values would exist for other jutsu, you're a smart guy.

Fireball already has numbers for its dimensions, its damage and its chakra consumption. Instead of all of those increasing as we get better at it, why doesn't the user get to prioritise how they want it to improve?

[NinjaMirage]

You act like these jutsu animations just happen when you hit a key!! It takes time to program the animations and stat values for a single jutsu!! Let Alone multiple animations and dynamic stat values that shift the animations on key command!! I like the idea it's just not realistic to implement!!

[Manuster]

You act like these jutsu animations just happen when you hit a key!! It takes time to program the animations and stat values for a single jutsu!! Let Alone multiple animations and dynamic stat values that shift the animations on key command!! I like the idea it's just not realistic to implement!!

Multiple animations? It's the same jutsu with different dimensions. That's literally all the animation changes. The only difference in coding an earth dome and a bigger earth dome is that one is bigger. It has bigger dimensions, everything else is exactly the same.... Whether it's width, height or length, it's very simple to do.

As for the stat value changes, that's literally already planned -  as you use a jutsu it causes more damage and uses less chakra. Even without my system, that was already going to be an 'issue.'


All I'm suggesting is that instead of these changes being automatic, allow the user to control them.

[NinjaMirage]

I must have missed somthing then because I thought all jutsu were going to have bass stats effected by character stats, and skill level at the 6 major skill trees!! This is much easier then programming every jutsu with a cast counter of sorts and adjusting damage by use!! The abuility to change the jutsu animations is not a simple scailing issue.. it will work for some like earth dome or wall!! But for chidori, fire breath and wind bullet its will not look right, and lead to glitches!

Also it's the characters skill with chakra that makes the difference in the jutsus effects! The jutsu dose not get stronger with use!!

For example how many fire ball jutsu did Sasuke shoot out over water when learning the jutsu? The power of the first fireball was the same as the one he used on kakashi in the team 7 bell training!! Only after he trained in chakra control with tree climbing did the power of these jutsu increase!!

[Manuster]

I must have missed somthing then because I thought all jutsu were going to have bass stats effected by character stats, and skill level at the 6 major skill trees!! This is much easier then programming every jutsu with a cast counter of sorts and adjusting damage by use!! The abuility to change the jutsu animations is not a simple scailing issue.. it will work for some like earth dome or wall!! But for chidori, fire breath and wind bullet its will not look right, and lead to glitches!

Also it's the characters skill with chakra that makes the difference in the jutsus effects! The jutsu dose not get stronger with use!!

For example how many fire ball jutsu did Sasuke shoot out over water when learning the jutsu? The power of the first fireball was the same as the one he used on kakashi in the team 7 bell training!! Only after he trained in chakra control with tree climbing did the power of these jutsu increase!!

Not every jutsu gets bigger when they get more powerful. The 5 'attributes' I mentioned for fireball  just for FIREBALL not for every jutsu.

Chidori
-damage
-chakra consumption

Earth Wall
-damage taken before breaking
-height
-width
-thickness
-length of time jutsu is active
-chakra consumption

Wind Bullet
-speed
-damage
-area (h x w)
-chakra consumption


And dude, as lovely as an idea as 'chakra control' would be. It isn't practical ingame. Which of these 2 makes more ingame sense?

The player who spends the most time running on walls will have the best fireball jutsu?
Or the player who has used fireball jutsu the most has the best fireball jutsu?

Chakra control would be unbalancing and would completely remove the point of training jutsu.

Jutsu should be trained individually. Not that you run around on water and ALL your jutsu are better. I understand the logic and explanation behind it, but it hinders gameplay. It would be alot more rewarding to have each jutsu trained individually.


Saying "using jutsu doesnt improve it is like saying running doesnt make you faster or cooking more doesnt make you a better chef"


Also, chakra control is used to learn jutsu. I.e. rasengan.

After learning rasengan, practice made rasengan better.

Chakra control -> Learn Jutsu
Practice -> Improve Jutsu

My entire idea is based on improving jutsu.

[NinjaMirage]

Saying "using jutsu doesnt improve it is like saying running doesnt make you faster or cooking more doesnt make you a better chef"

These are skills not jutsu!!! Sorry but your comparing different things!!
Using a rifle 100 times dose not make that rifle any better!! Or using a flamethrower 100 times won't make it any hotter or have more range!! Your skill with these weapons is what gets better after 100 times not the weapon themselves!!

But jutsu can be improved with skills unlike wepones!
But you want to train 125  different jutsu to master rank!!

I want to train 1 characters to master rank and then learn jutsu and train corresponding skills bassed on your rank!!

You tell me what makes more sence for game play!!

 And keep in mind that this is an RPG a MMORPG!!  Your system of training jutsu is fine if you're going to have it be like a ghost recon kind of the game where it's an action arena where you go around in all you do is fight and upgrade your weapons to do more damage and have more accuracy.

 In MMORPG there's usually two elements there's character development and equipment development!!  The world lore
, Character stats and development, and team play are what make MMORPGs good!!

 just because all we've had for the past three years is a half assed deathmatch, shouldn't make you loose sight of the End  Goal !!

[Sjones]

If the game has a "chakra system", chakra control is needed for the foundation of jutsu. All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu.

But what you are mentioning Manuster is, "Shape Transformation", Which falls under chakra control. There is Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation, which both falls under chakra control.

Ways to train chakra control is the Tree Climbing and Water Surface Walking exercises, which can be apply here, if you want "realism" right?

As I told you before, it's not that your idea doesn't make sense, I agree with some stuff but if you don't have a logical way of how it works, it can't be applied.

So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point, which is why I told you other jutsu were made from the base jutsu like the fireball. It's not hard to understand the basics.

[Manuster]

Saying "using jutsu doesnt improve it is like saying running doesnt make you faster or cooking more doesnt make you a better chef"

These are skills not jutsu!!! Sorry but your comparing different things!!
Using a rifle 100 times dose not make that rifle any better!! Or using a flamethrower 100 times won't make it any hotter or have more range!! Your skill with these weapons is what gets better after 100 times not the weapon themselves!!

But jutsu can be improved with skills unlike wepones!
But you want to train 125  different jutsu to master rank!!

I want to train 1 characters to master rank and then learn jutsu and train corresponding skills bassed on your rank!!

You tell me what makes more sence for game play!!

 And keep in mind that this is an RPG a MMORPG!!  Your system of training jutsu is fine if you're going to have it be like a ghost recon kind of the game where it's an action arena where you go around in all you do is fight and upgrade your weapons to do more damage and have more accuracy.

 In MMORPG there's usually two elements there's character development and equipment development!!  The world lore
, Character stats and development, and team play are what make MMORPGs good!!

 just because all we've had for the past three years is a half assed deathmatch, shouldn't make you loose sight of the End  Goal !!

you're comparing jutsu to WEAPONS ??

Jutsu are TECHNIQUES of manipulating chakra. they require chakra control to learn and take practice to master.

whats so difficult about that???

how can you suggest that anyone with masterful chakra control can learn any jutsu and be a master without any practice?? thats ridiculous and lazy

practice will always determine how good you are at the jutsu.
chakra control determines your ability to use it.

If the game has a "chakra system", chakra control is needed for the foundation of jutsu. All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu.

But what you are mentioning Manuster is, "Shape Transformation", Which falls under chakra control. There is Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation, which both falls under chakra control.

Ways to train chakra control is the Tree Climbing and Water Surface Walking exercises, which can be apply here, if you want "realism" right?

As I told you before, it's not that your idea doesn't make sense, I agree with some stuff but if you don't have a logical way of how it works, it can't be applied.

So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point, which is why I told you other jutsu were made from the base jutsu like the fireball. It's not hard to understand the basics.

Chakra efficiency has nothing to do with "shape transformation".
The amount of damage a jutsu does has nothing to do with "shape transformation."
The amount of time a jutsu is active for has nothing to do with ""shape transformation."

This is not the anime.

As for your second point;

Also, chakra control is used to learn jutsu. I.e. rasengan.

After learning rasengan, practice made rasengan better.

Chakra control -> Learn Jutsu
Practice -> Improve Jutsu

My entire idea is based on improving jutsu.

@NinjaMirage
@Sjones

We all saw Naruto improving his chakra control to LEARN rasengan. That's fine.

To improve it, did we see him go through those same exercises? Did we see him grind it before he could manipulate it's size, intensity, chakra cost?

No. He practiced it.

I'll say it again.

Chakra control -> Learn Jutsu
Practice -> Improve Jutsu

My entire idea is based on improving jutsu.

Jutsu are techniques - all techniques take a certain level of CONTROL to learn (how to ride a bike, play the piano, karate, how to juggle)

If you have perfect control over your body you will learn any of those easier than someone else who doesn't.

But you will still have to practice to master them.

[Sjones]

"Chakra efficiency has nothing to do with "shape transformation". ", I said, "All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu."

"The amount of damage a jutsu does has nothing to do with "shape transformation."", I was meaning for this,
"the width of the flame         100            10m wide
the length flame                 50              5m long
the height of the flame       17              1.7m high"

Which falls under "Shape Transformation", which falls under, "chakra control".
"Shape transformation is an advanced form of chakra control that involves changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range, and purpose of a technique."

"We all saw Naruto improving his chakra control to LEARN rasengan. That's fine.

To improve it, did we see him go through those same exercises? Did we see him grind it before he could manipulate it's size, intensity, chakra cost?

No. He practiced it.", Never said that you don't have to practice it to master it. I said, "So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point".

[Sjones]

But back at your point about changing the jutsu to how you want based on your skill of the jutsu. You really think in a  middle of a battle you wanna be changing stats?

You have different jutsus for different scenarios, The basic "fireball", is a mid range attack but it has two options in the narutoworld, 1 fast moving fireball to hit a target which you lose control over it onces it has been released so that means it can't be constant like the "firebreath" version which you have full control over the duration and size.

But if you want to f#ck up a army and you have mastery over firestyle you think someone wants to be changing their fireball stats into something like the, "Great Fire Annihilation" when you can just use the jutsu with that power and call it a day?

[Sjones]

It's more realistic and it gives us more options in jutsu, yes it will be hard on the devs to create and balance jutsu but if you want realism you can't hold back.