About The Layout Of Shinobi Tutelage

[Dragon6624]

Having poked about on the forums again, it seems to be the general consensus that new players will enter classes in order to learn the core components of this shinobi world and how they can go about surviving within it. However, it also seems that a lot of people are assuming there'll be more NPCs than I think Vreg&Friends are willing to add in; If I'm wrong about this, I wouldn't mind a correction and the sources stating otherwise, as it'll only add to the conversation. Moving on from that, however...

...Well, we already know that new, shinobi-in-training will be further mentored by Squad-Leaders...but why not *start* from that point, at least for those that are looking for a team early on. Instead of a 'school', per se, why not distance this world a bit further from its inspirations in that shinobi are trained right alongside Squad-Leaders from the beginning, learning the knowledge they need from Scrolls stored in the Library (properly filed and sealed from access according to Rank, obviously) before practicing those respective skills in the Training Field, or alternatively, any other place the Mentor so desires. Perhaps this game occurs in a time before proper Schools for shinobi, when things were still hearkening back to the "Every man learns from the next" system they devised during their imprisonment (I believe the majority wanted that for the backstory, anyway). Then, when the Mentor believes their Students ready, they could enter them into the monthly Genin/Chunin/Jonin Exams to advance into the next Rank.

This could then further develop the tensions/relations within any given Squad, as some students might enter without the consent of their Mentors, or others might feel pressured by not having advanced as quickly as their comrades, and thus not being capable of going on certain missions with them (provided they aren't booted due to lack of activity, or a new Mentor isn't needed due to death/inactivity). Additionally, this also fixes the dilemma of those that want to go Solo, as they pretty much could with a system this free....though, that's of course provided you'll even be allowed to train without a Mentor (I'm guessing it'd depend on the Kage).

So, in short, why not axe the whole notion of a School and the NPCs/uncontrollable classrooms riding on its coat-tails? Each player can start off RPing or Training right out of the gate, little to no wasted time required. What do the Devs --and further, the Community-- think about this subject?

[NinjaMirage]

I am all for player taught skills and the master student relationships. I think there are other answers we need before we talk about this. If players start the game with the same basic skills what makes one player capable of leading and teaching a squad over the others. Or is the idea that each squad member teaches the others one skill forcing people to play with other players to learn new skills. I still think a basic Ninja academy is needed to introduce players to the history of the lore and the basics of game play. Not all players will want to play the full on shinobi role. some may also want to play the role of merchant or diplomatic roles with other villages. basics will still be needed. after the academy I like the idea of master students from players in squads your in.

[Dragon6624]

If players start the game with the same basic skills what makes one player capable of leading and teaching a squad over the others. Or is the idea that each squad member teaches the others one skill forcing people to play with other players to learn new skills.

I still think a basic Ninja academy is needed to introduce players to the history of the lore and the basics of game play. Not all players will want to play the full on shinobi role. some may also want to play the role of merchant or diplomatic roles with other villages. basics will still be needed. after the academy I like the idea of master students from players in squads your in.

A. Everyone'll be on their own when the game *first* launches in Alpha/Beta/Launch. Those players will master their respective Jutsu before new Jutsu are created, and will thus be the First Generation of the shinobi...for lore purposes, you might even pretend that they're the Shinobi who broke free of their previous masters. I imagine that they'll be partners or solo-operators rather than squad-mates, learning as they go without the assistance of any sort of Mentor (there are many MMORPG players that do this in *every* game they play, attempting to gain the best understanding of how the systems work before passing on this knowledge to other players, either in-game or through videos/forums).

As the game continues to develop and further additions update the world, the Second Generation will arrive. These shinobi will now have a Mentor that may guide their training...however, they won't be *strictly obligated to teach only what THEY know*. The role of a Mentor is to guide the progression of those underneath them, more or less like a councilor rather than a private tutor. The Second Generation shinobi will either go Solo(learning what they can from the Library and personal training...much like Sasuke), Train Under A Mentor(learning their own style from the Library, with its implementation --especially as apart of a squad-- being guided by the Mentor...much like Neji) or Learn From A Mentor(learning --and possibly improving upon-- the style of their Mentor directly from them...much like Rock Lee).


B. Speaking of the Library, I believe that'll end up being a key component of any Shinobi Village. Libraries store not only Tiered Jutsu Scrolls, but also fragments of the world's knowledge...perhaps even differing one Scroll's recounts of an event in one Village from the recounts of that same event from another Village's perspective/propaganda.

Players who don't want to fulfill the role of a Shinobi never had to in the first place, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at there; In fact, I bet they'll be a few Shinobi who 'retire', or flunk their exams before deciding to do something easier, if more mundane XD).

[Edit: "Seibei" from "The Twilight Samurai" comes to mind: He was damned good at fighting, but found family-life far more relaxing, never having had much in the way of ambitions. Even despite this, however, conflict is still renewed when he's called upon by the head of their clan to slay a rebel amongst them...-- so, there's always the possibility that a shinobi who seeks peace may find themselves called upon once more; At the end of the day, Shinobi are subject to the will of their Kage, or are instead branded as Rogues.]

[animeoveraddict]

A. Everyone'll be on their own when the game *first* launches in Alpha/Beta/Launch. Those players will master their respective Jutsu before new Jutsu are created, and will thus be the First Generation of the shinobi...for lore purposes, you might even pretend that they're the Shinobi who broke free of their previous masters. I imagine that they'll be partners or solo-operators rather than squad-mates, learning as they go without the assistance of any sort of Mentor (there are many MMORPG players that do this in *every* game they play, attempting to gain the best understanding of how the systems work before passing on this knowledge to other players, either in-game or through videos/forums).

As the game continues to develop and further additions update the world, the Second Generation will arrive. These shinobi will now have a Mentor that may guide their training...however, they won't be *strictly obligate to teach only what THEY know*. The role of a Mentor is to guide the progression of those underneath them, more or less like a councilor rather than a private tutor. The Second Generation shinobi will either go Solo(learning what they can from the Library and personal training...much like Sasuke), Train Under A Mentor(learning their own style from the Library, with its implementation --especially as apart of a squad-- being guided by the Mentor...much like Neji) or Learn From A Mentor(learning --and possibly improving upon-- the style of their Mentor directly from them...much like Rock Lee).


B. Speaking of the Library, I believe that'll end up being a key component of any Shinobi Village. Libraries store not only Tiered Jutsu Scrolls, but also fragments of the world's knowledge...perhaps even differing one Scroll's recounts of an event in one Village from the recounts of that same event from another Village's perspective/propaganda.

Players who don't want to fulfill the role of a Shinobi never had to in the first place, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at there; In fact, I bet they'll be a few Shinobi who 'retire', or flunk their exams before deciding to do something easier, if more mundane XD).

I very much agree on this, I like how you bring up the First and Second Generation shinobi thing, good catch on how things are gonna work. It makes sense.

[Leebz]

people are assuming they'll be more NPCs

I hate when people believe they will be more NPCs

Jokes aside, you either meant "They'll have more NPCs" or "There'll be more NPCs"

[Dragon6624]

people are assuming they'll be more NPCs

I hate when people believe they will be more NPCs

Jokes aside, you either meant "They'll have more NPCs" or "There'll be more NPCs"

Good catch, let me just....*Typo bandaged*...

There we go, all better!

[NinjaMirage]

So your suggesting that the game will be adaptive to the play style of each player?

From a programming point of view I think that's rather unrealistic. Granted I'm just starting to learn code and stuff, but I don't see how that could be programmed.

For example a few things to consider:
1)With the first generations skills all the same at the start, the game would need to grant the players new skills and abuilitys by counting the number of times bass actions are accomplished.
(if this is different from what your suggesting let me know)
2)bass actions still need to be given to the players that lead to every kind of play style.
So I'm assuming basic movements will be the start but what ever lore the devs come up with to explain chakra- some one will have to teach the first generation players about it. And chakra is a major role in 3 out of the 6 skill trees.

3)what benefits if the above can happen by themselves are there to the second generation having a first gen mentor? They can do it themselves too. And if you try and make a skill like  "sensei" to alow second gen students learn faster!! What bass action or achievement will alowe a first generation player to get that skill?

I have other concerns about this free form kind of skill growth but let's leave it at that for now!

[obiokezie]

I'm currently creating an MMO shinobi based game as well.

[Dragon6624]

So your suggesting that the game will be adaptive to the play style of each player?

From a programming point of view I think that's rather unrealistic. Granted I'm just starting to learn code and stuff, but I don't see how that could be programmed.

For example a few things to consider:
1)With the first generations skills all the same at the start, the game would need to grant the players new skills and abuilitys by counting the number of times bass actions are accomplished.
(if this is different from what your suggesting let me know)
2)bass actions still need to be given to the players that lead to every kind of play style.
So I'm assuming basic movements will be the start but what ever lore the devs come up with to explain chakra- some one will have to teach the first generation players about it. And chakra is a major role in 3 out of the 6 skill trees.

3)what benefits if the above can happen by themselves are there to the second generation having a first gen mentor? They can do it themselves too. And if you try and make a skill like  "sensei" to alow second gen students learn faster!! What bass action or achievement will alowe a first generation player to get that skill?

I have other concerns about this free form kind of skill growth but let's leave it at that for now!

All players in the First Generation would be learning the current Jutsu available to them, possibly stealing others from their Village counter-parts and adding them to their own libraries.

The Second-Generation Shinobi would now have Mentors that they could train underneath, while still having the option of just training by themselves as well. I like the idea of a system being implemented later on (during the Second Generation, I assume) that would allow players to legitimately form Squads with Mentors&Students, perhaps up to a certain Rank (At Jonin, the system would disband the Squad automatically, perhaps with a message of some sort).

Jutsu are learned from Scrolls (and then practiced over time, obviously), which would be appropriately ranked and stored in Libraries. As for how players will steal Jutsu to further add to their libraries....I think that's still up for debate, though I might be mistaken in that regard.

[NinjaMirage]

But why are they able to learn the jutsu we have now? we currently have 4  nature's of jutsu in game. As well as basic kenjutsu.
Why are you able to learn these thing?
How do you advance in learning new natures that allows you to learn from the scrolls containing:
earth dome, earth wall, fire breath, wind bullet, and lightning fist(chidori)?
What sequence of events leads up to the ability to weld the katana in a way that lets you do damage to an opponent and not cut off your own head?

Simply saying you look at a scroll practice the hand signs and bingo you know a new nature and jutsu seams a little underwhelming to me.
There is No feeling of immersion this kind of learning system.

Jutsu require skills to use
focus
chakra control/ or stamina
Intelligence
ext.
these skills need to be developed before you attempt to learn a jutsu from a scroll.
now some you might be able to develpe throw practice and everyday play.
but some will have to be taught. simply for lore reasons and to immerse you in the game play.

this leads to the question what comes first the teachers or the students.
If not npc's then some story explanation as to why players have the abilities needed to be able to teach
other players the skills they need to know.
 

[Dragon6624]

But why are they able to learn the jutsu we have now? we currently have 4  nature's of jutsu in game. As well as basic kenjutsu.
Why are you able to learn these thing?
How do you advance in learning new natures that allows you to learn from the scrolls containing:
earth dome, earth wall, fire breath, wind bullet, and lightning fist(chidori)?
What sequence of events leads up to the ability to weld the katana in a way that lets you do damage to an opponent and not cut off your own head?

Simply saying you look at a scroll practice the hand signs and bingo you know a new nature and jutsu seams a little underwhelming to me.
There is No feeling of immersion this kind of learning system.

Jutsu require skills to use
focus
chakra control/ or stamina
Intelligence
ext.
these skills need to be developed before you attempt to learn a jutsu from a scroll.
now some you might be able to develpe throw practice and everyday play.
but some will have to be taught. simply for lore reasons and to immerse you in the game play.

this leads to the question what comes first the teachers or the students.
If not npc's then some story explanation as to why players have the abilities needed to be able to teach
other players the skills they need to know.
 

Obviously, there'll be a lore explanation as to how some of the world's populace have chakra, that much has already been established. As for the Scrolls, you *learn* of a new Jutsu (if you can even perform it in the first place, as I imagine there'll be a message saying something along the lines of "You don't have the appropriate Natures to learn this" if you *do* try to), but you must *master* it through practice in order to maximize your effectiveness with it, or your ability to convert it into a larger version of itself (if the particular Jutsu is capable of that, of course).

Skills would be trained through Training Grounds, I *believe*, such as practicing Stamina-conditioning by having your character perform Track&Field for a bit at a time. The Jutsu themselves are stored in scrolls in the Libraries, or at least, that's what I'm proposing. Basically, you don't need schools in order for Shinobi to create their respective playstyles, all you need is a Mentor, a Library and (yes) a Training Field of some sort. Or, if you just want to go solo, a Library and a Training Field.

You shouldn't need to explain why players are capable of teaching, because the Mentors will simply be advising their Students on how best to go about accomplishing their goals: "Oh, so you want to be the Taijutsu member of our team, hmm? Alright, spend some more time training your Stamina and Speed -- here, let me show you a great place/piece of equipment to help with that." The First Generation will be figuring out the systems and Jutsu available to them, which will allow them to train the Second Generation as they come into focus. If you already have all of the elements above, then why bother with a School anymore?

[NinjaMirage]

So you want to just Role Play the mentor thing.
That's fine, I got nothing against that. I think there should be some kind of benifit to the students other wise there is little point to finding a mentor. Maybe some kind of training reduction to doing it yourself. Other wise it's better for a village to keep the newbies back and train and let the people that know out and do missions. The only reason mentors existe is to increase the training speed of students. Makeing them usfull for the village faster. Kinda hard to role play that!! I agree that IF* everything works the way you describe that schools are not necessary. However some skill sets like medical ninjutsu and Fuinjutsu should take specialized training. Going to the library and reading texts on anatomy, pharmacology,biochemistry, and immunology is ok and all!! But in the library when studying each have the nessessary items listed and skills needed to treat poisons, wonds, or debufs or any combination of the three. With just 5 types of each( very low in my opinion) your looking at 155 combinations of damage wonds and debufs
So
155 types of treatments
If there are combinations of 2 and 3
(I want combinations of 4-5)
That's a lot of studies to do with out a teacher.

[Dragon6624]

So you want to just Role Play the mentor thing.
That's fine, I got nothing against that. I think there should be some kind of benifit to the students other wise there is little point to finding a mentor. Maybe some kind of training reduction to doing it yourself. Other wise it's better for a village to keep the newbies back and train and let the people that know out and do missions. The only reason mentors existe is to increase the training speed of students. Makeing them usfull for the village faster. Kinda hard to role play that!! I agree that IF* everything works the way you describe that schools are not necessary. However some skill sets like medical ninjutsu and Fuinjutsu should take specialized training. Going to the library and reading texts on anatomy, pharmacology,biochemistry, and immunology is ok and all!! But in the library when studying each have the nessessary items listed and skills needed to treat poisons, wonds, or debufs or any combination of the three. With just 5 types of each( very low in my opinion) your looking at 155 combinations of damage wonds and debufs
So
155 types of treatments
If there are combinations of 2 and 3
(I want combinations of 4-5)
That's a lot of studies to do with out a teacher.

Whoever said being a Shinobi was going to be easy? Practice takes time, and some students might find it more beneficial to focus on certain aspects of their training over others, specializing by prioritizing their wants/needs. I believe that same type of specialization is what made every character from the inspiration so unique in combat.

As for the Mentors...yeah, I suppose it would make since to give a decent reduction to the amount of times you'd need to train Skills before being capable of unlocking a second Chakra nature or being able to understand the basic form of a Jutsu; However, I believe you should still have to focus just as hard as solo operators when it comes to actual usage of a Jutsu in perfecting it -- levels the playing-field, so to speak. That way, there'll still be a clear benefit to having a Mentor (besides their experience), but it'll do less to incentivize Power-Leveling characters through Mentoring them, and Solo characters won't have such a comparatively massive wall to scale.

[NinjaMirage]

I don't disagree with any particular point!! But how do you give the mentors the abuility to speed up training? Maybe just a local buff in the training arieas that only effect the squad your with?

[Dragon6624]

I don't disagree with any particular point!! But how do you give the mentors the abuility to speed up training? Maybe just a local buff in the training arieas that only effect the squad your with?

Basically, yeah:

Shinobi of Jonin status are capable of forming Squads consisting of up to three other players beneath them -- this will be represented by some sort of side-bar UI only available to players of the Jonin status (Rogues will be out in the cold on this one, as they might be of Jonin *level*, but not *status*). While leading their Squad, they'll have a bar with a set number of Training Points that regenerate over time (most likely encouraging training for 2-3 hours per day).

Students within a small radius of the Mentor (50-100 meters? Or perhaps 30-50?) will gain a buff that draws upon this bar whenever the Mentor activates it, and will subsequently lose the buff whenever it runs out or the Mentor manually deactivates it; Said buff will decrease the practice sessions required to increase Skills, but not Jutsu.

In this way, Mentors will be able to assign when Students train and where, but Students will be able to practice whatever skills they need to under said Mentors.