Medical ninjas combat effectiveness.

[NinjaMirage]

As the topic suggests... I wanted to get comments on how combate effective medical ninja should be. If a player want to specialize in medical ninjutsu- dose that mean he will be less combat effective against someone that specializes in say ninjutsu or taijutsu?

Sence your rank will be based on ELO and ELO is based on combat. Then if medical ninja are less effective at combat then other trees then
It will limmet the rank a medical ninja will be able to achieve. However if medical ninja are as combat effective as say ninjutsu and taijutsu
And can heal then they will be to OP and throw off the balance of the game.

[StriderOtaku]

Wow, that's a really good question. Maybe there could be some other kind of ranking system introduced for medical-nin, idk. I wanna know too

[Dragon6624]

Assuming that all of the example player-characters we use are fairly intelligent and aware in combat....

....I'd still have to answer with "It depends".
It depends; Will the majority attempt to go toe-to-toe with other shinobi, or will they instead use more deceptive maneuvers to counter an enemy's brute strength? It depends; Will they be able to heal themselves capably (outside of combat, at the very least), or will they only be able to heal others? Assuming you can get to Chunin just off of a relatively good level of awareness, tactical foresight, and prowess with regular weapons and basic/intermediate Tai-Jutsu, then I'd say the only things limiting them from getting to Jonin and above are:
~~How far they can progress in Medical Proficiency, and whether or not they are able to use their knowledge of the body to knock out chakra-points for small periods of time
~~How they will be treated as a part of a squad; if it's anything like how healers are treated in Dungeon-Runs on most other MMOs, there's no fucking way a Medical Shinobi is going to be effective
~~How limiting the study of Medical Jutsu and 'Other' Medical/Biological-related subjects will be, and whether or not this will allow them to study in other fields, so as to be at least moderately effective in combat

...But that's all me on theory again. If anyone has any hard proof/minute details of how Medical Shinobi are going to work, I'd be all ears for it.

[Edit: I don't think they'll ever be "...as effective..." as other, more on-the-field type shinobi will be --in terms of maximum damage potential-- but I'll at least say that any intelligent Medical Shinobi will be able to take on up to 2-3 average/sub-par opponents with the right conditions. Really, the deal-breaker here is how well Min-Maxers make use of the jutsu available to them, and then how well the hordes use those "Builds" afterwards.]

[NinjaMirage]

With the ELO system the way it is the only fair
Way to build the trees so that the damage/recovery ratio balances out equally

So if kenjutsu-has high dps/low recovery
       Ninjutsu-has the same
       Fuinjutsu-has mid dps/mid recovery
       Taijutsu - same
       Genjutsu & medical-low dps/high recovery

[StriderOtaku]

Maybe outlasting opponents on the battlefield/taking more damage than other trees would help medical-nin with the combat based ELO sytem, maybe

[NinjaMirage]

It will force players to play a specialty though witch people have bin very vocaly against.

There combat style will be limited to hit and run tactics and distance damage for players with high dps because they will have glass jaws.

Conversely medical ninja would want to get in there and tank the damage because they can only deal small amounts of dps at a time or maybe tic damage- poisons and such. And mainly use there chakra for healing the damage they take.

It will end up dictating battle style witch is what we are trying to avoid.

But I don't see any other options in a skill based ELO ranking system. Damage caps and recovery rates are the only way.

The other way is that ranks mean very little other then bragging rights. They won't effect jutsu you can use- only your skills will effect jutsu you use.  This is more true to the naruto universe anyway in my opinion.

[LethalDarkness4]

This is a good question, it's funny because I too have been wondering how different styles of fighting other than the basic ninjutsu will work in this game. I have been wondering particularly about taijutsu.

What I mean is will taijustu work like the storm series games where it stuns you when you hit someone? Or will it just hit the opponent but allow the opponent to keep moving normally? Almost like how you hit someone with the Chidori in slo since the Chidori in slo functions way differently to the kind of Chidori you use in the storm games where it stuns you and makes you fall to the ground.

[LethalDarkness4]

This is a good question, it's funny because I too have been wondering how different styles of fighting other than the basic ninjutsu will work in this game. I have been wondering particularly about taijutsu.

What I mean is will taijustu work like the storm series games where it stuns you when you hit someone? Or will it just hit the opponent but allow the opponent to keep moving normally? Almost like how you hit someone with the Chidori in slo since the Chidori in slo functions way differently to the kind of Chidori you use in the storm games where it stuns you and makes you fall to the ground.

[StriderOtaku]

It will force players to play a specialty though witch people have bin very vocaly against.

There combat style will be limited to hit and run tactics and distance damage for players with high dps because they will have glass jaws.

Conversely medical ninja would want to get in there and tank the damage because they can only deal small amounts of dps at a time or maybe tic damage- poisons and such. And mainly use there chakra for healing the damage they take.

It will end up dictating battle style witch is what we are trying to avoid.

But I don't see any other options in a skill based ELO ranking system. Damage caps and recovery rates are the only way.

The other way is that ranks mean very little other then bragging rights. They won't effect jutsu you can use- only your skills will effect jutsu you use.  This is more true to the naruto universe anyway in my opinion.

What if healing was such that it doesn't affect your dps at all and the healer would still be able to be proficient in say ninjutsu/kenjutsu. To avoid this being too OP, they would have to heal with a large amount of the same chakra they need for combat so each time they use heals they drain themselves of the very thing needed for combat therefore reducing their own success in a head on fight. This way the healer would have both healing and combat in the bag but would constantly have to make a decision in fights which role they want to play ie stay back, avoid taking damage and heal teammates as they fight or jump right into combat sacrificing their healing ability at this point.

I'll give an example; say a particular healer type user has 2000 chakra points and knows ninjutsu skills A and B both needing 900 and 1600 points respectively.This healer also has healing skills X and O which both require 1200 and 1000 points respectively. In combat, opting for ninjutsu wouldn't leave the healer with enough chakra to be efficient as a healer. Using ninjutsu skill B would take away the healers healing completely since they lack sufficient chakra to use heals while using A would still enable the healer to aid his team's and his recovery but in turn ninjutsu skill A would be a weaker more basic attack than B thus reducing the healer's combat proficiency. This way, i think healing would be a choice made depending on the opponent, the healer's ability and what role they play in combat  with friends.

[NinjaMirage]

For game play purposes this would seem to work. I think it goes contrary to the naruto universe... but that's not nessessaraly a bad thing. In naruto medical ninjutsu requires a high level of chakra control. So theoretically a medical ninja could perform say fire ball jutsu
More efficiency and with less chakra than someone with out that control. So medical ninjutsu dose in that sence take more chakra then attack ninjutsu. If someone had the knowledge of medical ninjutsu but not the chakra control nessessary they would use up all there chakra and still possibly not heal properly.


However your suggestion  still has the problem of limiting the battle effectiveness of medical ninja. Dps is still effected but only for medical ninja. And it kinda brakes the feel of naruto combate in my opinion.

[Yamasukage]

-_- baaaah if the issue is how do Med ninjas gain and ELO rating to go on to become a Chunnin, Jounin bwah bwah then how about we all consider my idea which got swallowed up by this demonic forum.

The Milestone tracker: this idea is fairly complicated but here I go, its meant to blend in with the ELO rating system and be a sort of achievement tracker where you gain points for certain actions and decisions within the game; for e.g if you take up being a Medical Ninja as an occupation/specialisation you could be presented with a list of achievements with hidden and straightforward task that help with your ELO e.g one objective could be heal 500 shinobis or keep your teams average health at 50% and above during a battle or something like that these points would aid help you gain ELO points apart from killing other shinobi and e.t.c but these would help you improve both your skills as a med and aid in your tree building and blah blah and in regards to the hidden objectives they could simply be some OP thing that is pretty much impossible to do e.g bring a shinobi back from the dead, haaaa no you won't do it trust me <-< .
(<-< )you know come to think of it my milestone feature should be used I've just answered the question to how rogues can gain ELO I'm a genius!

[DrSuhi]

I think medical ninjutsu should have two branches, which grow together as you learn more about medicine trough practical application, of the jutsu they learn trough scripts, books and other such tools. On one hand you have the actual healing aspect and on the other the offensive application of the same techniques. For example you have the most basic jutsu of restoring cells, since you know how to help them heal, you are able to figure out how to destroy them at the same speed. So in this example you would probably use taijutsu and your punches or kicks would do more damage. This would represent your knowledge of the body.

[NinjaMirage]

@DrSuhi it goes with out saying the medical knowledge of human anatomy would help medical ninja in dealing damage... the question is the. What keeps them from being over powered from a game stand point.

@Yamasukage a milestone bump to an ELO system will throw off the ELO system.
Persinaly this Whole consept of ELO in a mmorpg I never understood.  It works well in chess and strategy games to represent players ability. But if the ELO is going to be tied in to the rank of your characters- and not describe the ability of the player controlling the character
Then the system will fail. It's like trying to rank the chess peaces in stead of the player moving them.

For example a queen has several skills...
however you neede to be
Genin rank ELO you only get the kings move
chunin rank ELO to get the rook move
Jonin you get the bishops move...

If there are going to be character skills
Then ELO should have no effect on jutsu

If there are no skill requirements for jutsu then being rewarded with better moves for having a higher ELO is ok.

This is like saying ok you beet me with out a rook you have earned the right to use it.

[StriderOtaku]

@DrSuhi it goes with out saying the medical knowledge of human anatomy would help medical ninja in dealing damage... the question is the. What keeps them from being over powered from a game stand point.

@Yamasukage a milestone bump to an ELO system will throw off the ELO system.
Persinaly this Whole consept of ELO in a mmorpg I never understood.  It works well in chess and strategy games to represent players ability. But if the ELO is going to be tied in to the rank of your characters- and not describe the ability of the player controlling the character
Then the system will fail. It's like trying to rank the chess peaces in stead of the player moving them.

For example a queen has several skills...
however you neede to be
Genin rank ELO you only get the kings move
chunin rank ELO to get the rook move
Jonin you get the bishops move...

If there are going to be character skills
Then ELO should have no effect on jutsu

If there are no skill requirements for jutsu then being rewarded with better moves for having a higher ELO is ok.

This is like saying ok you beet me with out a rook you have earned the right to use it.

I get what you're saying. Maybe you could pitch this to the devs or make it the topic of another thread so everyone can see it.

[Dragon6624]

I get what you're saying. Maybe you could pitch this to the devs or make it the topic of another thread so ever so everyone can see it.

There's no reason to move this current thread, Vreg&Friends see all.