chakra control system (STATS)

[Cryptonexin]

Everytime I come here, I see numbers. Like why? Fam, do you want me to pass out? Anyway, I agree with cmsurfer about the spirt energy stuff and that we should be allowed to focus training on stamina and chakra etc. Loller and cmsurfer have the right idea for me, but just a question: Won't people start farming the shit out of everything or one thing and spam that thing? what I am saying is shouldn't it be fair. Like you can't train this unless you have trained this and such. Please correct me to the right path if you think I am in the wrong one and that I am confused.

[NinjaMirage]

I think i know what your talking about @Cryptonexin . and yes i was thinking of training in stages for chakra control. i was thinking- you must graduate the academy to train tree climb, tree climb to do walk on water, must know walk on water to train chakra nature and so on. Training skills- yes, that the idea you train to make yourself stronger- how much you train and what you get is going to need alpha testing so you dont end up with players with 800 Strength 1300 stamina and so on. My objective here was to make skills and experience s and stamina all fit with the chakra system in game now. any numbers found in this thread are all to illustrate the idea. the system needs testing to get final numbers. But a good way to prevent getting super high numbers in skills like strength, stamina , dexterity- etcetera are to have training in stages at different places in game forcing travel time to the location and something there requiring the skill you train there. A story that requires you to accomplish some training could limit the total training or maybe you could only get to as certain skill level at any one training ground, and as you get higher skills new training ground could become more scarce. Im open to Ideas on that. but yes there would need to be some kind of skill cap that may be boosted using some jutsu.

[NinjaMirage]

So to keep everything fresh and hopefully give the dev's (@Vreg)usable figures and ideas when they try to implement a stamina bar(I.e. Physical energy)
Here is a brake down of the full chakra and stamina system in this thread

Physical energy  and spirit energy is what make up chakra

Physical energy = stamina there the same thing

Bass stamina for everyone
physical energy i gave the value of 3906 because that is the voltage your body can produce if every cell could be used like a neuron
This value Has a set number of times (trial and error here)it can refill quickly (.2-.3 sec.)before food must be eaten or you will pass out. I suggested the time slowly increase after you use up your fast regen times, untill -10 then you pass out.
 
Skill tree modifier for stamina
3906xPEU- this is meant to reduce how much of this energy is needed to make chakra and other activities such as jumping ,dodging, sprinting and blocking.
There are 2 effects this could have and I will leave it to vreg to deside what is best. Or maybe even implement both???
1 is PEU -.33 is = to 1/3 that  means that you use only 1/3 of the total energy  to make chakra or perform physical activity at a time.
2 is to increase the number of fast regens in the bass amount. So you always end use the full 3906 in everything you can just do it more without eating.

However I should point out that you should only be able to train in stamina skill here or in advanced chakra control but not both.

spirit energy is the sum total of all your experiences and skill. Trying to explain why i used 1215 for this is a little complex but basically you have 5 major stats each stat with 43 total point posable assigned at character creation. And then by the time you graduate the academy and learn to use chakra will have 1000 exp to use in molding chakra. From then on all skill points in your tree and exp( small amounts) you get from missions and training will be added together to get the total SE. So SE=stat points, skills,and exp. and if Jutsu end up useing a Majer stat then fatigue will be the resulting effect on stats. Unlike PE the only thing that can restore SE is sleep. After you sleep all exp from your past mission from the last time you sleeped will be added to your totals.

Chakra control skill tree modifier
1215xSEU- this is meant to reduce how much of this energy is needed to make chakra
Just like PE. .1 is one tenth of the 1215. this means that you can regenerate chakra 10 times

concentration skill CS
once you have the amount of energy you are using to make chakra you need to figure out how good you are at mixing the 2 energies together. This will decide how much chakra is made from the energies you are using.
.2= 5 energy to 1 chakra point to start
2= 1 energy to 2 chakra points at the max.

So there you have it and here is how it comes together to make chakra

Stamina skill + skills,experience
((3906xPEU )+(SE x SEU))CS =sum of desired chakra in bar.

[Vreg]

Thank you for the insights @cmsurfer, appreciate the effort

I've been thinking about what system we should go with for energy and I'm not sure whether following Naruto is the right path here. Separating physical and spiritual energies seems like a good idea but then chakra becomes kind of redundant, nothing but a formality basically. If a jutsu requires 200 chakra what it really requires is 100 spiritual and 100 physical energy. So I was thinking maybe it's a better idea to scrap spiritual and physical energies altogether and simply talk about stamina and chakra as completely separate entities.

Essentially ninjutsu would require mostly chakra, but it would also require some stamina, in contrast taijutsu would require mostly stamina but a form of enhanced taijutsu could require some chakra as well. Things like Genjutsu could be completely exempt from stamina and only require chakra.

This is a more clear system with less confusion and I have a feeling that the Naruto system would unnecessarily overcomplicate things.

What do you guys think, what I just suggested or would you prefer the actual Naruto system?

[Dragon6624]

I like the effort put into this, and I have to say I would --in part-- like to see it kept around, as one of the key reasons cmsurfer&friends designed this system was to help balance out stats and the progression limits of them -- thus, the name of this thread.

However --and I may be entirely misunderstanding this system-- at the same time, it also seems very much like STATS aims towards a very realistic manner of addressing player capability, which would be good in a game that represents the fragility of the characters within it. In this sense the system would work perfect for something along the lines of a survival-horror game, in that you can't over-exert or you'll be exposing yourself to severe side-effects and limitations later on down the line. But a title such as SLO seems more along the lines of an action-oriented game. It needs to be contained within reasonable boundaries, yes, but at the same time it has to sacrifice some limitations because otherwise you wouldn't be *able* to achieve Vreg levels of power. You wouldn't have any use for mastering so many different jutsu, because higher-tiered shinobi simply wouldn't be able to have their bodies undergo that type of stress. It's humbling, in a way, in that all of these characters are linked by the same level of humanity -- but that doesn't seem like it could work well *enough* for a universe in which there's *so much* of that 'magic' to be discovered and utilized. Taking a reference note from Naruto/Shippuden, one can clearly see that --even though they *try* to follow a more realistic method-- abiding by these levels of realism is simply too much, and as such they often-times simply choose to ignore those restrictions because it'd limit their ability to show off all the flashy jutsu and the...internal strength of characters, their willingness to go above and beyond what anyone else would say is impossible.

And to be frank, the 'Naruto-system' was more or less abandoned later on down the line for these exact reasons...and...possibly the fact that you can't support a fighting-anime fan-base on *realistic limitations* ((*coughs, DBZ+nearlyeveryotherfightinganimeevertoexist*)).

If we want to have this sort of realistic system, it might mean toning down the level of jutsu, focusing instead on martial encounters with jutsu to *support* and catch the enemy off-guard. On the other hand, if we go with a more DBZ-Based system ((because that's essentially what Naruto jutsu has become)), there's a higher chance for imbalances to occur, for the 'soulless grinders' to discover breakthroughs beyond what *should* be possible, and for them --and any player with no imagination but vast quantities of ego-- to subsequently exploit these 'loop-holes'.

It's a matter of balance between realism, fun, and ultimately what these combined two form...core gameplay.

[DarthTyrael]

You're basically saying the same thing, cmsurfer complexer than you Vreg.

Stamina bar (Tai ++, Nin +, Gen -) and Chakra bar (Tai -, Nin +, Gen ++) with ++/+/- scaling for usage cost.

Couldn't say with whom I agree since you both are basically saying the same thing, but I agree.

Edit: However cmsurfer is also taking into account the skill trees in order by which the cap increases.
Taijutsu skill trees would enhance the stamina bar greatly, whilst Ninjutsu skill trees would both increase the chakra bar and stamina bar a bit and the Genjutsu skill tree would increase the chakra bar greatly.

[Vreg]

You're basically saying the same thing, cmsurfer complexer than you Vreg.

Stamina bar (Tai ++, Nin +, Gen -) and Chakra bar (Tai -, Nin +, Gen ++) with ++/+/- scaling for usage cost.

Couldn't say with whom I agree since you both are basically saying the same thing, but I agree.

Edit: However cmsurfer is also taking into account the skill trees in order by which the cap increases.
Taijutsu skill trees would enhance the stamina bar greatly, whilst Ninjutsu skill trees would both increase the chakra bar and stamina bar a bit and the Genjutsu skill tree would increase the chakra bar greatly.

It is the same thing really, but we're simply renaming spiritual energy into chakra, calling physical energy stamina and no longer saying a specific ninjutsu needs only chakra which is implicitly a mix of spiritual and physical, rather chakra is the spiritual energy that a ninjutsu needs combined with some physical stamina.

What I'm suggesting for the sake of our players is removing the unnecessary complication that does not add anything but makes things more confusing when they can be more simple.

As da Vinci once quoted

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

[NinjaMirage]

The thing is the values I have set up are only for examples the numbers can be tweeked to support any level of realizem we want. As @dragon6624 said eather early naruto or
DBZ. Personally a scale were we go from a naruto type play and train to the point of a DBZ player would be cool and acurat to the naruto type universe.

My system also allows for training chakra or stamina like @Vreg said and his way is simpler and would basicly get the same result...
For gamers not familiar with MMORPG's this is the better system
The only advantage my way has is that it adds alittle interplay between both stamina and chakra and clearly defines ways to train chakra.

I'm  partial to mine personally but I'm not objective as I have put a lot of thought in to this.

What I'm suggesting for the sake of our players is removing the unnecessary complication that does not add anything but makes things more confusing when they can be more simple.

Edit: @VregI agree the player should not have to do this himself.
 I'm not suggesting changing anything to the way Jutsu is activated now. Just to add elements of the characters abuility and experience to explain why we have the chakra in the bar we have now. But this will come later as we don't have charicter stats eather.
Currently there is no stamina bar but using chakra should also use stamina... If there septret  chakra may as well be mana or magic or any other spellcaster resorce.
The thing I like best about naruto is everything takes effort...and its represented in the way they discribed chakra... This is the idea SLO is bassed on... Skill... do we Realy want a system that by using chakra just magically gives you more chakra with out any drain on your physical  resources or with no explanation as to why.
There is likely a simpler way to accomplish everything this system dose but if it's done this way it sets the ground work for stats, trees, experience, all the fundamental achievement structures you expect from a MMOARPG. As well as makes them all of use to you witch no other mmorpg has done. So as you grow in experience and skill your chakra or stamina grows with you making you even better.
A sence of achievement is what it will provide the game and that can be an addicting force to people with out it in there life. All good business!!!!!

[NinjaMirage]

This is a completely difently thought so I thought I should post again.

I think @Vreg we should put in just the stamina Bar for now.. And see if we like the play were chakra didn't effect stamina. We can still make stamina work the way I have it here if we need to later. But for now (untill we have charicter stats and skill trees)all we need is a stamina bar and a regen rate to start putting in items, weapons and Taijutsu attacks. As well as have stamina take over some of the movement requirements.

This is step one!!!

On a side note chakra is not at all redundant
As the Jutsu uses 200 chakra, not Sprite energy
As a mater of fact in low levels of the way I have this worked out it could take as much as 400 physical energy and 200 spirit energy to make 200 chakra- simply because your not good eanuph yet to be able to convert energy to chakra in a 1-1 scale.
See advanced chakra control above.

@dragon6624
You get the idea just fine...I think... And yes it is kinda like a survival game system. But even in naruto when everyone got massively more powerful, it was the Jutsu that got stronger not the people with the exception of senjutsu that made them physically stronger- what could kill sasuka befor he got the rennegon in his left eye, could still kill him after he got it. His skills and Jutsu are what made him harder to kill. And that is why I made the physical attributes in this system equal for all players. That way it's the skills and Jutsu the players learn that will make them harder to kill and there for more action will result not less.
The other thing a even playing field will do is teach team work to lower skilled players... It will almost force it... Because strategic game play early on will increase your chances of survival. It will make it so that only skilled Shinobi that already know how to work in a team will make it to the point were they are skilled  enough to go out on their own.
This plays in to the hatred of Rouge ninja and gives an immersion affect to the game play.
We want this game to be around for a long long time... And it will only get there if we can make the players feel like there in the game and accomplishing somthing... How is still playing halo multiplayer online..no one
There was no sence of accomplishment in the game... It was so successful because of the story and the graphics for the time and later on they added new  strategic weaponry.
But the franchise is all but died... Replaced by better FPS games like call of duty.
Mean while The old republic and Wow are still going strong.. Not because of game play
It sucks just klicking squares all day... But because it offers  immersive stories and a sence of achievement.

[DarthTyrael]

A thought just occured to me.

How about different types of training to increase different stats besides the skill tree modifiers?

For example:

The Taijutsu skill tree could have modifiers further enhancing your sprint speed and your efficiency in stamina consumption, whilst running with weights on can increase your base sprint speed and efficiency to a certain hard cap. (Maybe even increase the speed increase per tick allowing for faster acceleration)

Spoiler: show

Lvl 0 Speed --- 35 km/h. Stam cost efficency reduction: 0%
Lvl 1 Speed --- 40 km/h. Stam cost efficiency reduction: 10%
Lvl 2 Speed --- 45 km/h. Stam cost efficiency reduction: 15%
Lvl 3 Speed --- 50 km/h. Stam cost efficiency reduction: 20%
Lvl 4 Speed --- 55 km/h. Stam cost efficiency reduction: 25%
Lvl 5 Speed (Cap) --- 60 km/h. Stam cost efficiency reduction: 30%

Taijutsu skill tree:
Youthful Foal: Enhances (maximum sprint speed)/(speed acceleration) by 5/7.5/10% and reduces the stamina cost by 5/7.5/10%.

Conclusion: a full-fledged Taijutsu user would use almost half as much stamina than a non-tai user and run 10% faster (66 km/h).

Check the spoiler above for some examples.

Just an idea, let me know what you think.

Note: I included the stamina bar in running as a means to train it, not as much for utilizing it.

[NinjaMirage]

These are well thought out skills and I think would work well eather way stamina is implemented.

this is a lot like the PEU skill I have that Increases Stamina  efficiency for making chakra.

But specifically tailored to increase speed and stamina efficiency for Taijutsu.

[NinjaMirage]

The other thing my system can do , (if you ever deside to change your mind about alowing players to create there own Jutsu with some kind of expantion later on after the first release, witch as successful as I see this game becoming- is a logical next step ) is to set the ground work for the nessessary elements to create a Jutsu.

Not just the chakra needed but the definitions of control needed for different forms and nature's .

If you never have any planes on doing somthing like this with the game.... Which i think would be a mistake... Then your system is much easier to understand and to implement. @Vreg

[NinjaMirage]

So I have bin thinking about the charicter stats and crafting and skills a lot lately... And reading over other pen and paper RPG games and other MMORPG's I want to bring up some suggestions for charicter creations and beginning skills.

So after you create your  characters physical appearance you should  immediately  be taken to the Academy-

The Acadmey should serve as a introduction to the game as well as a way for you to deside what direction you want to start out training in.

Here are some ideas of things that should be  taught at the Academy.

Core classes:
Chakra
Stamina

Core classes will be a explanation of the system implemented namely chakra and stamina(what ever that system may be)
Both of these classes are required for graduation.

Secondary classes(skills)
Starts with an explanation of:
Ninjutsu
Genjutsu
Taijutsu
Bukijutsu
Fuinjutsu
Medical ninjutsu
Ninja arts
Beast mastery
Once an understanding of these is complete you can then train in skills needed to pass the tests of the above classes. Call these electives!!!
Chakra control
Concentration
Sparing
Targeting
Calligraphy
Crafting
Botany-(if we are going to have to make inks and potions and medical supplements like food pills- any skill like gathering should be built in to the class that needs it. So knowledge in that skill implies the abuility to gathe what that  knowlage allowes)
Biology
Physical education
(Speed and endurance training)
6th sence-( I suggest that in the SLO world this comely held beliefs be a actual skill that can be trained for sencery class ninja)
Navigation
Stealth
Diplomacy
Zoology
Cooking
Fencing/kendo
Fish
Teach

So I think the number of electives you can take should be determined by the intelagence of your character you just created
Not sure yet exactly how but this is a commen Machanic for RPG's in general.

The electives you take will determan what secondary class tests you can take to learn skill trees
Such as
Ninjutsuyou must learn a ninjutsu and perform it

genjutsu
same as ninjutsu

Taijutsu
win a sparing Match against an NPC instructor

Bukijutsu same as Taijutsu
 
These should be support skill trees

Fuinjutsu- acadamy teaches chakra sealing and release- advance Fuinjutsu corps sealing and summons if available.

Medical- acadamy teaches chakra heal like the mystic Palm Jutsu and  collaborative aoe healing techniques and well as medical ninjutsu like chakra scalpel and antidotes. Sencery- by chakra( this means barrier Jutsu- like Jiraiya vs pain) is part of the advanced cariculom at medical academy

Beast master- teaches taming beasts,colaberation ninjutsu or Taijutsu, vetranarian skills and beast training skills. Sensery- by smell is part of the advanced academy cariculom

Ninja Art- ninja crafting acadamy, making puppets,poisons,explosevs and barrier tags.
Other posable aplications is cooking and food pills or ink summons.

The support class skill trees should each have an advanced acadamy of there own to teach them more powerful techniques and skills

But all this is only nessessary if we are going to think of knowledge as a part of spirte energy that we can use to make chakra...these skills are place holders for points that add up with Experiance to make chakra... The place holders value determine what you are capable of succeeding at in a action requiring that skill.

If Sprite energy and physics energy will not be making up your chakra pool... Then I'm lost to why we need this kind of skill set up at all.. In less your chakra is equal to the skills and Experiance basicly leaving the chakra contol skill useless-except maybe reducing how much chakra is needed for a given action??? I don't know.

[NinjaMirage]

Electives above should fit in to class test as so:
(If more electives are added they will fall in place or a general skills will be added)

Ninjutsu
 Ninjutsu- explanation
 Chakra control
 Concentration
 Targeting
Genjutsu
 Genjutsu- explanation
 Chakra control
 Concentration
 Biology
Taijutsu
 Taijutsu-explication
 Physical education
 Sparing
 Stealth
Bukijutsu
 physical education
 Sparing
 Fencing/kendo
 Stealth
Fuinjutsu
 Fuinjutsu explanation
 Chakra control
 Calligraphy
 Stealth
 Targeting
Medical ninjutsu
 Medical ninjutsu explanation
 Chakra control
 Botany
 Biology
 Stealth
Ninja art
 Ninja art explanation
 Stealth
 Botany
 Colligraphy
 Crafting
Beast mastery
 Beast mastery explanation.
 Physical education
 Zoology
 Biology
 Sparing

General skills include
 Fishing
 Cooking
 Crafting
 Navigation
 6th sence
 Diplomacy (needed for missions involving NPC's of other villages)
 Teaching(requires chunin rank or higher- can only learn 1 rank at the acadamy)


So I suggest you take 3 classes with these electives as primary and have 2 elective periods
So when you graduate the acadamy you have 3 skill trees to train in.

However you may notice that if you take classes that complement each other like ninjutsu genjutsu and medical ninjutsu you will get
3 In chakra control
2 in  concentration
2 in biology
1 in stealth
1 in targeting
1 in botany

Or you can diversify like ninjutsu, Taijutsu, ninja art
Giving you nearly 1 in every skill except specialty skills in
Bukijutsu- fencing/kendo
beast mastery- zoology
Witch could be your electives...

To learn the remains trees you would need to find special trainers around the world of SLO before your train fully train any of the trees you graduate with. If you have all 8 trees you can not unlock advanced Jutsu's as mentioned in other threads such as:

Ninjutsu- senjutsu
Taijutsu- lotus or some such
Genjutsu-  Tsukuyomi like( target can't stop)
Bukijutsu- puppets (schematics for these )
Fuinjutsu-kote
Medical ninjutsu-some vesion of creation rebirth
Ninja art- some kind of fast acting poison
Beast master- colaberation Jutsu-Keba or Jiraiya
 
 

If this is the start of your charicter skills then
Trees can be filled with charicter abuilitys for instence...
For your first change in chakra nature you need 3 points in chakra control

For your second you

Need 5 points in chakra control
And 1 point concentration.

Simultaneously with my system those same
Skill points in chakra control will alow you to regenerat chakra 5 times using the spirte energy and physical energy available to you
As well as give you 3 spirte energy to use in making chakra.

And at your second nature
Regenerate chakra 9 times and 1/4 more chakra every time you regenerat the energy.

By the time you graduate the acadamy, if you took the right classes,  you could be ready for the chunin exams right out the door...or if your  goal is to master everything you will need to train abit in basic skills before your ready.


 
 
 

[NinjaMirage]

A BIG UPDATE TO THIS SYSTEM!!!

A new understanding of stamina!!!

This was taken from the naruto wiki on chakra.

Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together. Physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) is collected from each and every one of the body's cells and can be increased through training, stimulants, and exercise. Spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī, English TV: Mental Energy) is derived from the mind's consciousness and can be increased through studying, meditation, and experience.

As you can see the chakra we have worked out but the physical and spiritual energys collectively make up a person stamina. Not just physical energys like I had originally thought!!!

The equation I used for chakra is perfect!!! It has every chakra control skill built in to it.

However this opens up the ability to have a stamina Stat that is made up of physical and spiritual energys.

Stats
Strength-PE
Dexterity -PE
Constitution PE
Intelligence SE
Imagination SE
Skills           SE
Stamina = sum of above
Chakra=Cc x((Total PE xPEU)+(total SE x SEU))

With this new understanding a whole new stamina system will need to be worked out!!!

Let me know it you agree with this so far!!