How to Recreate Tree Hopping (And Eliminate The Jump Spam Combat Issue)

[KiraReincarnate]

First let me just say I'm glad I stumbled across SLO - this game has started from a fantastic foundation by focusing on movement and combat dynamics first before RPG elements, so the core gameplay will remain interesting and varied.

Now back to the suggestions!

Eliminating Jump Spam Combat Issue
I've seen people complain about jump spammers during combat.

The solution has been to increase the chakra cost of jumping. Which is unrealistic, and it'll also prevent the tree hopping mechanic (but more on that later).

The true solution: Auto-Assist (like what's used in First-Person Shooters to help you aim at enemies).

Doesn't have to be strong magnetism, but there should be a little nudge to follow enemy movement because in real-life our eyes can easily are able to follow such fast moving objects.

Auto-assist will prevent jump spamming being an issue in combat, which will allow us to reduce the chakra cost of jumping.

Then we can get started with the fun stuff: Tree Hopping.

Tree Hopping
Classic movement system in the Narutoverse which allows you to avoid animals and other ninja at ground level, as well as adding an extra dimension to travel/combat/spying/assassinations/traps/ambushes etc.

Every tree will have 3 height levels of branches:

• Level 1: One small branch at pointing South (10 feet high or however the normal jump is)
• Level 2: Another small branch pointing West (another 10 feet higher)
• (Note: both these small branches are 2-4 wide to act as small platforms to get to the top)
• Level 3: (another 10 feet higher) Two branches, one pointing North and another East. They're both 3-8 foot wide branch to act as a suitable platform

Every tree are these Hashirama trees (at least near Hidden Hill) and each tree is equidistant from each other so you can get a good fast movement speed through the trees.

Here's a bird eye view to demonstrate the Level 3 tree movement layer:


Awesome right? Not only will this allow an additional method of travel, it will also save your designers lots of time - rather than trying to make every tree unique, we instead opt for cloned trees (at least around Hidden Hill) to allow this new aspect of the environment.

You could even have the heights of every level of branch slightly adjusted to prevent shinobi from seeing anyone hundreds of feet ahead of them (e.g. Tree 1 has Level 3 at 27 feet, Tree 2 has Level 3 at 33 feet, etc).

What do you guys think?

I'd love to hear if you like it, or there's any critiques because an effective tree hopping system would be amazing

[Tameshi Hinode]

Sounds good,but its really not a priority right now.


,,because in real-life our eyes can easily are able to follow such fast moving objects.''
Some things may not be as realistic as they could be,but sometimes,they are jut more entertaining that way.
And just because you CAN follow someones movements in RL,it doesnt mean that you will automaticly do that just because you can.

Anyway,some kind of soft-lock would definatly be nice.

[Shivraj]

Cloning trees sounds... rather... I don't know... not appealing. The devs are making each building in a Hidden Village unique from each other, ofc, the layouts will be copied time from time(meaning, buildings might get copied for other villages, but they won't be the exact same), but there is a huge variety of buildings (already...). It'd look too bland if all the trees were just one single model copied x 1000 times to make a forest.... Ofc, this is just my opinion.

Auto-Assist makes the game really, let's say, easy. Basically, you mean a camera lock onto the enemy, right? That's just... a bit not what this game is going for. Of course, a bit of camera assisting might be good, but we'll see the answer to that in the future.

[Tameshi Hinode]

Thats why id like to see a soft-lock,not a regular camera lock.
I think if this game is released,many people will lag.
Maybe because the server makes problems,maybe because ther pc isnt good enough,maybe its ther internet....
Some may even do it on purpose.
Hitting these guys with a chidori for example,will be very hard.
And even if they wouldnt lag,it can take very long to kill someone.
But we still want the game to be fast paced,right?
A soft-lock would be a good compromise.
You would still need to aim,you just wouldnt have to aim EXACTLY at the enemy.
That way,you can avoid minor lag problems and the game can be fast paced and people would still be able to hit each other in a acceptable ammount of time.
If the movements in the game would be slower,there would be no need for a soft-lock,but thats not how it is.

One more reason:
Lets face it,many players just arent good at a combat system like that.
We can allready see how hard it is for many people to hit someone with chidori.
Ofcourse,we could just say,,learn to play''and move on.
But this game has a small community and its a indie game.
There cant just be,,pros''....noobs,casual players and average players are needed too,because they simply make a large part of the player base(and the player base donates to the game and buys stuff..basically,the playerbase is what keeps the game alive).

A combat system that is easy to learn,but hard to master,would be key.
Everyone can participate in combat without getting frustrated quickly because they cant hit anything,but they will have a very hard time against experienced players because they have better reflexes,know more tactics,know how to time a counter or dodge....and thats how it should be,if you are more experienced you should ofcourse be stronger.
A soft-lock doesnt mean it wont be a skill based combat system anymore,it would just solve multiple problems in 1 go.

[lollernoob9]

Idk if you know, but they care less about appealing to the average player, being more concerned with making it simulate life as a shinobi in the naruto type universe.
 
 not a terrible suggestion for how tree hopping will go, any devs care to mention what direction this is going to take? ( unless its Konohuro with a "Its already been planned" )

[Tameshi Hinode]

They can stimulate the life of a shinobi while still making it easier accessable to the average player at the same time.
Making the combat system harder,or easier,has no influence on the story,the jutsus,handsigns,the buildings or anything else.
Just on the combat system itself.
It wouldnt be less authentic.

And how do you expect a mmorpg to work out in the long run,if there are no players around for trading,RP,sparring,missions or anything else?

I was starting to play a certain sandbox mmo a few years ago(not going to write down the name now).
It was aiming for realism and wanted to simulate a harsh and cruel wordl(you have to eat and drink,you can gain weight,if you die,you lose all your items,you can steal items out of other peoples pockets and get flagged as a criminal for this....things like that).
Basically,ther target audience have been,,die-hard hardcore players''.
But in the end,they had to make a lot of changes,like adding a newbie protection,a real tutorial,some kind of,,quests'' and even make the game free to play because they just didnt make enough money.
They had to make the game a bit more,,newbie friendly''.
And well,the game is still there after a few years,so it worked out somehow.

What im trying to say is:its hard enough to focus only on a certain type of players,if you are a big game company.
But doing this as a indie developer is kinda risky.
Not saying the game should be dumbed down,really...just saying it should allow average skilled people to also enjoy ther time in the game,even if they are not part of the,,elite''.
And lets not forget that its just annoying if a fight lasts from one server maintance,until the server maintance of the next week.


A camera lock could be avoided,though,if the attacks would have a higher area for hit detection and there would be more ways to counter dodging/jumping/lagging players.
But at least for taijutsu,i strongly suggest a soft-lock.

So....just wall running and walking on water missing now,eh?^^

[Mars]

Nice ideas, and if you guys expect the devs to make every single fucking tree unique you'll be in for a shock.

[Vreg]

First let me just say I'm glad I stumbled across SLO - this game has started from a fantastic foundation by focusing on movement and combat dynamics first before RPG elements, so the core gameplay will remain interesting and varied.

First of all, I'm glad to read that some of you actually get it.

Second, we have already planned computer-based vision assistance for things like enemies as it would indeed be easier to follow someone (visually) in real life.

Third, tree jumping has already been planned with computer-assisted jumps between branches with some effort required on the player's side as well, but I had not yet thought about including different levels of height. That's a very interesting suggestion and we will review it when we actually start the creation of this mechanic.

When it comes to the trees themselves, we have the resources and techniques to make trees appear somewhat unique without all trees having to be identical copies of each other.

Thank you for your suggestions.

[KiraReincarnate]

Glad to help, looking forward to seeing these mechanics in action

[ParadoxRonin]

Thats why id like to see a soft-lock,not a regular camera lock.
I think if this game is released,many people will lag.
Maybe because the server makes problems,maybe because ther pc isnt good enough,maybe its ther internet....
Some may even do it on purpose.
Hitting these guys with a chidori for example,will be very hard.
And even if they wouldnt lag,it can take very long to kill someone.
But we still want the game to be fast paced,right?
A soft-lock would be a good compromise.
You would still need to aim,you just wouldnt have to aim EXACTLY at the enemy.
That way,you can avoid minor lag problems and the game can be fast paced and people would still be able to hit each other in a acceptable ammount of time.
If the movements in the game would be slower,there would be no need for a soft-lock,but thats not how it is.

One more reason:
Lets face it,many players just arent good at a combat system like that.
We can allready see how hard it is for many people to hit someone with chidori.
Ofcourse,we could just say,,learn to play''and move on.
But this game has a small community and its a indie game.
There cant just be,,pros''....noobs,casual players and average players are needed too,because they simply make a large part of the player base(and the player base donates to the game and buys stuff..basically,the playerbase is what keeps the game alive).

A combat system that is easy to learn,but hard to master,would be key.
Everyone can participate in combat without getting frustrated quickly because they cant hit anything,but they will have a very hard time against experienced players because they have better reflexes,know more tactics,know how to time a counter or dodge....and thats how it should be,if you are more experienced you should ofcourse be stronger.
A soft-lock doesnt mean it wont be a skill based combat system anymore,it would just solve multiple problems in 1 go.

Frist off Everything you guys said make sense I was playing a zombie mmo that was kinda hardcore in a way.

But the way the game play is set it is easy to control but horrible in the style of game play because its always in birds eye view.

And everything is coming at you at a crazy speed. so now the people depend on glitches and pay to win items to get by because the gameplay was everywhere. Its chaotic and the bosses are to powerful to kill at a normal play lvl. But they are there from the start.

So many people just give up and now I'm looking at what tameshi said about the everyday player and i,m like it makes sense in a way to make it easy for the everyday play. It brings popularity fast but the only way to have everyday players is to make the game easy and fun to play for the player in general that doesn't mean skill wont be involved tho.

If a game is fun and easy to understand to the overall gameplay and the everyday player I feel this game would have been taken off already.

but I feel the combat system is flawed and of course everyone knows that already. But not many people bring it up they say that you have to be skilled.

I think that's a brunch of booty trying to make everyone a skilled mouse user if you can move in damn near every direction at a fast paste.

So I feel a reflex auto aim be put in just to give a better combat feel.

like lets say every players avatar has a bubble or a hit area like the Naruto neji fight. And when inside or when the bubbles meet, the bubble the opposing player,s avatar is able to auto lean towards the target for a better reflex system like you guys said you want it realistic. Well natural reflexes is realistic honestly and it would easily solve the taijutsu combat style.

for exp:




And speaking on taijutsu I feel taijutsu would be amazing but my idea of taijutsu is simple . Your attacks, or taijutsu supported ninjutsu attacks are only effective in close range combat. And that each part of you body has a damage level and both players bubbles be must meeting.

for exp:
head-50
left and right arm-25
left and right leg-15
torso-30


But when players hit each other at the same time Both attacks are considered dodged and it sends them into what I call a faceoff. Now a face off is simple, each player will get locked in a close quarters combat situation and is given a set of keys that they must hit in order to win a hit on the opposing player. The player that gets the most hits did the most damage, but if each play hits each key right both attacks are not effective and each key has a time limit to be hit lets say 3 seconds each key. Also if another player outside off the face off try's to attack he will be risking attacking his own ally making it more realistic.




for exp:
M=missed ,H=hit, C=means they both got it right lol.

1pkeys:w,d,s,d,w,a,a,d,w,s
           c,m,h,m,h,h,m,h,h,c
                   50% damage dealt
2pkeys:d,s,w,d,a,w,s,w,w,a
           c,h,h,m,m,m,h,m,m,c


Also auto view lock on in combat like in the Naruto games would be great too. Lets say a player attacks you your will view automatically lock on to the attacker and the camera follows him where ever he goes. and you have the option at anytime to break that lock.


It makes the combat system easy but blocking will be needed with this play style.

[Dragon6624]

"A combat system that is easy to learn,but hard to master,would be key."

Best comment on the overall combat system(s) I've heard in a while.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If a game is fun and easy to understand to the overall gameplay and the everyday player I feel this game would have been taken off already.

but I feel the combat system is flawed and of course everyone knows that already. But not many people bring it up they say that you have to be skilled.

I think that's a brunch of booty trying to make everyone a skilled mouse user if you can move in damn near every direction at a fast paste.

So I feel a reflex auto aim be put in just to give a better combat feel."

1. The game isn't out, they're still working on all of the combat systems; be patient young genin.
2. I find it odd that the majority of players want the ability of teleport, but then they also want it easy to still relish in the slaughter of a thousand opponents, so they now want the ability to auto-aim. Maybe you could try rotating the camera a bit...?
3. I actually did find the "Face-off" idea interesting, but it would work better in a single-player or low-multiplayer game, mostly because it would leave you so completely exposed in the heat of combat that you couldn't even break it in order to dodge say...another enemy's attack. You'd worry less about hitting a comrade and more about people deliberately luring players into the equivalent of a death-trap.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Odd to see a topic on tree-jumping get yet another combat idea thrown around.

...perhaps we should all take a break on the combat ideas...there's still pleeeenty of time left before this project even hits an Early Alpha release. Give the devs some time to digest other problems eh?

[NinjaMirage]

Eliminating Jump Spam Combat Issue
I've seen people complain about jump spammers during combat.

The solution has been to increase the chakra cost of jumping. Which is unrealistic, and it'll also prevent the tree hopping mechanic (but more on that later).

The true solution: Auto-Assist (like what's used in First-Person Shooters to help you aim at enemies).

Like Verg said auto-assist is planed but with the hole endurance thing we have discussed Based of PE then jump spamming would not be a effective battle strategy because it would be a wast of PE and would weaken your ability to absorb damage ... not to say it can't be done to dodge but if would make you fatigued more quickly. another benefit of a ENDURANCE mechanic.

[Tameshi Hinode]

You are a true medic ninja,cmsurfer,you revived a thread from 2015

Stamina to,,absorb damage''?
I mean,using stamina to dodge,jump and things like that,seems allright,but absorbing damage?
Chakra might be better for that(through a jutsu).

[Reminance]

Eliminating Jump Spam Combat Issue
I've seen people complain about jump spammers during combat.

The solution has been to increase the chakra cost of jumping. Which is unrealistic, and it'll also prevent the tree hopping mechanic (but more on that later).

The true solution: Auto-Assist (like what's used in First-Person Shooters to help you aim at enemies).

Like Verg said auto-assist is planed but with the hole endurance thing we have discussed Based of PE then jump spamming would not be a effective battle strategy because it would be a wast of PE and would weaken your ability to absorb damage ... not to say it can't be done to dodge but if would make you fatigued more quickly. another benefit of a ENDURANCE mechanic.

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